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If Sony can, can Canon and Nikon?

Discussion in 'Other Cameras' started by jknights, Apr 20, 2017.

  1. jknights

    jknights Moderator Staff Member

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    This look like something that Canon and Nikon need to make.
    Same specs but with correct name badges!
    The Sony a9 is a 24MP sports-shooting powerhouse


    Come on Nikon its has been really slow the last 12 months!
    D5 too heavy, D500 APS-C!
    Need a D810/800, D610/600, D750 replacement.
    This looks great, shame that Sony dont have a great set of lenses.
     
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  2. Troy Williams

    Troy Williams Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it's a nicely spec'd camera for sure...but I'd prefer it in a DSLR body because holding a small bodied camera for a while is kinda painful for me.
     
  3. jknights

    jknights Moderator Staff Member

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    Well mirrorless is the way forward and Sony have realised this Canon and Nikon are slow out the traps.
     
  4. tallone6ft5us

    tallone6ft5us Well-Known Member

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    It is really beginning to look like it is going to become a Sony and Fujifilm world. Canon and Nikon need to start doing something soon. Traditional DSLR sales just aren't what they used to be and any new shooters are seriously looking at mirrorless instead. Things are definitely shifting towards mirrorless. The great thing is that the Sony a9 is a clear indicator of what Fuji will be doing with the rumored "sports" camera or next X-T model. It will be interesting to see what the other camera companies do to respond the the Sony a9.
     
  5. Richard_R

    Richard_R Eclectic eccentric

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    APS-C is perfectly acceptable for many sports shooters and gives the 1.5x crop advantage for lenses. If you are shooting for a newspaper or online there is no reason to need anything larger than APS-C for sports.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  6. beakhammer

    beakhammer Premium Member

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    Nikon is in financial trouble. I don't know where Canon's head is.
     
  7. GregWard

    GregWard Premium Member

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    I knew that "stacked" sensor would start to impact sooner or later. I imagine it will make it's way into Nikon eventually (I'm not really a subscriber to this idea that Sony won't provide sensors to others). Obviously Canon would need a significant change in attitude to use another sensor.

    I think the mirrorless vs DSLR argument isn't about comparative size any more. Too many of us have a similar view to @Troy Williams I think and want a camera that feels right in the hand. Before you know it there's a viewfinder "hump" and a substantial hand grip. Plus it's really about the size of a system overall (so including lenses) and mirrorless offers few advantages there.

    That's not to say I don't think "mirrorless is the future". But I think that's more to do with other features. For me the most significant is the WYSIWYG electronic viewfinder.
     
  8. beakhammer

    beakhammer Premium Member

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    It seems that many of the big camera manufacturers don't have a very creative or forward-looking design philosophy. Fuji has a long history of making unusually creative, even oddball, cameras. Some of these old film cameras are still classics that are in demand on the used market with few, if any, competing designs from other companies. Canon and Nikon have a long history of competing by making small design changes that focus on incrementally improving on the same exact type of camera that their competitor is making.

    It strikes me as peculiar that none of the big DSLR builders have tried to make a hybrid finder. There is no reason not to combine an EVF and the optical finder to create a hybrid viewfinder DSLR. The mirror flips up and you get switched to live-view through the eye level finder. Sure, the shorter flange-back distance of the Sony, Olympus, and Fuji cameras (and smaller size for some) is an advantage, but Canon and Nikon DSLRs would be more useful in a number of respects if they included an optional EVF (Hybrid viewfinder) instead of forcing people to peer at the LCD on the back of the camera for live-view. Canon and Nikon Mirrorless cameras have also been disappointing, and it seems strange that they haven't done the obvious thing and made a straightforward X-T1 style Mirrorless camera designed to use standard DSLR lenses (as well as other lenses potentially, using adapters). I would bet that a Canon Rebel with an EVF instead of a mirror could be a big seller. I know the Canon mirrorless cameras take EF lenses via an adapter, so maybe this is the same thing, but it doesn't seem like it somehow.

    Nikon's DF kind of missed the point by being half-assed retro instead of being a true fusion of the past and the future. A camera like the X-Pro2 or X-T2 manages to be an advanced modern camera in a number of respects and still delivers a lot of the best qualities of retro cameras. Nikon could have made a camera like that, but instead managed to make a camera that retains the disadvantages of a DSLR without the compact size and easy handling of a classic film Nikon, but also without any ground-breaking or even forward-looking capacities.
     
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  9. jknights

    jknights Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree.
    Having a huge set of Nikon lenses that allow me to take on any job I am reluctant to sell out my Nikon stuff until there is an equivalent Fuji replacement.
    The FF v. APS-C sensor argument has been mostly put to bed with the latest generation of sensors and support electronics as results are pretty close. I am ambivalent about GFX as I have FF and APS-C. For me it is about functionality and the EVF is king for me as gives me WYSIWYG images.

    I am really a Fuji X-T2 fanboy. It is the camera that I have always wanted.
    Could it be improved of course but only with new technology. Faster EVF refresh, faster AF lock on, full swivel (like Canon) on rear TFT screen, some improvements in the custom fn button programming.
    More Fuji lenses of course would force my hand to reach for the wallet e.g. 70mm f2.0, 80mm f2.8 macro, 8mm f4 rectilinear.
    X100F with a 55mm f2.0 would be very nice as well.
     
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  10. GregWard

    GregWard Premium Member

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    Not quite sure about my X-T2. Hopefully I will come to agree with you. But I've only taken it on one major outing (to La Gomera in the Canaries) as I bought it quite recently. I've only just started processing my images - so I'll have to see.
     
  11. jknights

    jknights Moderator Staff Member

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    If you dont like it then I can transfer money to you, arrange pickup of camera or postage to me via Royal Mail. :)
     
  12. Frankie

    Frankie Premium Member

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    I was hoping that Nikon would soon wake up...and make a FF film-less, mirror-less and hump-less camera with a wide array of accessories like the olde F2.
     
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  13. starlights

    starlights Premium Member

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    Kodaks in the making?
     
  14. beakhammer

    beakhammer Premium Member

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    Possibly. Nikon and Canon will be able to sell the same old cameras to people with big collections of DSLR lenses for a while longer, but I suspect that young people will move to newer tech, and less expensive gear, as it continues to improve, while a lot of us older folk will continue to dump the bulky gear for lighter cameras. That leaves a small group of middle-aged pro photographers, dentists and doctors as the sole remaining customers who might want big expensive clunky systems. Canon and Nikon can hold onto some of the landscape and wildlife shooters for a bit longer, but I imagine that mirrorless cameras will soon overtake even these specialized areas. DSLRs are falling behind in the video arena as well.

    It wouldn't surprise me to see some new ideas take cameras in new directions as well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
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  15. sour_soup

    sour_soup Well-Known Member

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    The new A9 should probably have Olympus worried as well, considering the EM-1 Mark II was showcased for its speed and FPS. Now that the larger format has caught-up, it will be interesting to see what major differentiator they have left.
     
  16. GregWard

    GregWard Premium Member

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    Much smaller, lighter and (potentially at least) cheaper lenses. Removing the mirror does not - per se - make lens cheaper/smaller/lighter but a substantially smaller sensor certainly does. Add in IBIS (which Sony have in FF but it's hard to make as efficient with such a big sensor) and it being easier to make fast lenses for smaller sensors and Olympus have quite a compelling case.

    FF will always be better for higher resolution and/or better low light (4x the surface area means the photo sites can be bigger or you can have more of them) But how much resolution and how much low light performance does a specific photographer need?
     
  17. Frankie

    Frankie Premium Member

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    Paraphrasing myself...

    "In my [professional] world of digital photogrammetry, the trend/practise is referring pixel footprint size as GSD [Ground Sampling Distance].

    The notion is based on similar triangle/ratio in "[pixel] site/f = GSD/distance"...distance to us means net flying height. Such a trend was started by Zeiss ca. 2003, soon also echoed by WILD-Heerbrugg [forcibly rebranded Leica Geosystem in '91] and is now professional speak.

    [BTW, Zeiss uses a Dalsa 16k sensor in the panchromatic band of their second-generation aerial cameras (DMC-II), plus 4 channels of 8k Ir, R, G, B colours via separate cameras all mounted in an array... The camera system and post-procession software cost $2 million dollars...In Zeiss I trust.]

    If you do the math, you will soon realize the sensor site ratio of a Fuji 24Mp APS-C X-cameras [4-microns] to say a Leica 24Mp FF M10 [6-microns] is the same as the 1.5 lens crop factor [APS-C to FF] and would produce the same pixel-peeping GSD......if equivalent FL lenses are used."​
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  18. Troy Williams

    Troy Williams Well-Known Member

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    I will say this, tho...I've shot surfing with my X-T1 and had zero camera issues after I adjusted to the EVF...only the small body size was an issue after holding it for a few hours (the weight of DSLRs doesn't bother me...but it is a noticeable difference). After I was able to get satisfactory results with the X-T1, it made the X-T2 less desirable for me.
     
  19. jamie allan

    jamie allan Premium Member

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    Surely price is a major differentiator? I've just had a mailshot from WEX offering a pre-order of the Sony A9 for £4499 body only. They are also offering their FE 100-400mm lens for £2499. Combined that's the cost of a small, affordable car in the UK. The EM-1 mk II body is £1849 (40% of the cost of the Sony). I can't see many amateur photographer buyers at those Sony prices so I assume Sony are aiming at a different market.
     
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  20. johndizzo15

    johndizzo15 Premium Member

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    The lens options have actually opened up quite a bit since the first gen bodies came out.

    Between the budget FE lenses, the GM lenses, Zeiss natives, and now Samyang AF lenses, everything is pretty much covered sans the fast super telephoto primes (which there are other options for anyway). Also, Sigma recently came out and said that native FE lenses are forthcoming. Between the native options and the really slick operation of Canon EF lenses, you pretty much have access to everything you need at this point.

    The A7R2 has been stellar with both native and adapted lenses for my uses and I can only assume the A9 will be even better since it address most of the things I find annoying about the R2. All I can say is, I am definitely looking forward to May 25th when this baby starts shipping.
     

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