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The Camera You Use Doesn’t Matter

Discussion in 'General X Camera Forum' started by CWRailman, Sep 11, 2017.

  1. johndizzo15

    johndizzo15 Premium Member

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    Get a grip? I'm not quite sure what you are referring to as the post above was rather difficult to decode.

    The problem is, I'm not the one making generalized/sweeping claims about the motivations of other people. You are.

    The statement I have quoted from your previous post is not so much a statement based in logic as it is in assumptive generalizations based on your feelings. Why would one need to challenge that claim with logic? All I have pointed out is that you have made a potentially insulting generalization based on your assumptions which carry a negative undertone. Never have I denied the potential for the core of your statement to potentially hold some truth with a specific segment of photographers. The problem is with the delivery and sweeping generalization part.
     
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  2. AnthonyM

    AnthonyM Premium Member

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    Who knows what the future may bring?

    Will the X-T3 enable me to make better photographs? Maybe, maybe not.

    But, please note, I have never used the word "great" in relation to my photographs.
     
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  3. boulevardier

    boulevardier Premium Member

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    That's incorrect. My point all along was continually buying the latest camera won't make you a better photographer. I stated it explicitly and stand fully behind it. Each subsequent post has been a reply to someone trying to read a pejorative into what I said and getting out of shape.
     
  4. johndizzo15

    johndizzo15 Premium Member

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    I won't disagree with what you are stating as your original point as we see eye to eye there. Everything subsequent to that though, we can agree to disagree (especially with regard to the previous quote regarding the plethora of reasons you provided for purchasing motivations).
     
  5. boulevardier

    boulevardier Premium Member

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    Ok, let's deal with some facts. I'll offer two reasons why I'm correct.

    1) If the latest camera really is something to get excited about and improves your photography, why does a subsequent release emphasise everything that's wrong with the old one in comparison? If a camera is as great as people claim at its inception, why are a heap of the last iteration with the similar approval ratings available on eBay for a fraction of the original price? You'd have thought an exemplary camera would hold considerable attraction (sentiment, familiarity, rave reviews, whatever) that holds up a mere 18 months down the line.

    2) Unboxing videos. Why would a cardboard box being laboriously opened and its contents held up for appraisal attract someone interested in being a better photographer. Viewing figures suggest novelty alone is a prime motivator in camera acquisition.
     
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  6. johndizzo15

    johndizzo15 Premium Member

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    With regard to both points, those are not facts and I remain uncertain of their relevance/nexus.

    You generalize that we all feel that a new release emphasizes what's wrong with the old one when really, the case could simply be that we desire some of the features of the new one.

    Based on your logic, we could go back to the very first commercialized camera that was brought to the consumer market. That camera must have been thought to be a modern marvel at that point in time, right? The problem with this is is that it begs the question. If we all hold to this dogmatic view of development, why do we bother with advancement at all if merely loving something at one point is good enough that you don't need to concern yourself with subsequent advancements? Who gets to decide when enough is enough?

    I for one have never viewed an "unboxing" video as it is of zero interest to me. I am curious though, how does one come across these videos and then subsequently see/remember the viewing figures for said videos?

    Beyond all this, I still fail to see how any of your points justifies your previously made sweeping generalizations about why people that continually buy stuff are motivated to do so.

    Again. Another instance/example of a purchasing decision I made not too long ago. Had an A7R2. Great in some aspects, painfully bad in others. Taken as a whole, was great. My primary complaints were speed of operation, playback, buffer, write time, sub par ergonomics, single card slot, poor battery life, significant problems with ES mode, etc. But I could live with them in exchange for all the things I did love about it.

    Then comes the A9. Addresses all of the ergonomic/speed concerns and everything else I didn't like with the A7R2 and managed to yield IQ that I am still happy with. Joystick added, noticeably improved AF, touchscreen, faster write time, faster operation all around, dual card slot, significantly improved battery life, and biggest of all, a truly usable electronic shutter mode. Great!

    Then comes decision time. Considerations to be made. Is it financially feasible? Yes. Will I enjoy shooting with it? Absolutely. Decision made and trigger pulled. No brainer.

    So with regard to your first point above, I am in the camp of people that doesn't think the old is useless just because the new is out. Instead, there were nagging issues that existed well before the new was ever even thought about. The things I didn't like about the old were things I was willing to accept as part of the package. Something new came along that addressed all of those issues and I bought it. At no point have I thought to myself, "I can't believe how useless the A7R2 is now that the A9 is out." I also never opened the box while giggling to myself about the novelty of it. I'll tell you what I did do with it though. I ripped the entire thing open, threw the battery on the charger and installed my spider holster plate. Two hours later, I was off and shooting and haven't looked back.

    The joy it brings me is not based on the ownership of said item in and of itself, but the experience I am having when I shoot it (along with the corresponding images I am producing).
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
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  7. dem

    dem Premium Member

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    I suppose that doesn't mean that there's no advantage of using full frame over m43. Or does it?

    How about all these talks about the "medium format look"? Does your friend Damien regret buying the GFX50S?

    I didn't like the video. The guy was hypocritical and quite negative about his followers. He, the carrier of the absolute wisdom, made them sound really stupid. I don't think anything constructive has come out of this very long thread either.

    Cameras are tools. I have got big chisels, small chisels, medium format chisels - they are all supposed to do pretty much the same job and I use them as I find fit. I buy them and I sell them as I find fit. This doesn't make me a better carpenter overnight but I enjoy the process. I don't care what other people think about the way I do things and I am certainly not going to force my views on others - they can do things as they find fit. </rant>
     
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  8. AdrianG

    AdrianG Premium Member

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    I usually can't be bothered following links like this one. However, to fully understand what all of this actually was all about, I did this time. Wasn't worth it.

    -The title is rubbish. As a statement it is false, literally and metaphorically, and it doesn't represent the statement made in the video. The title should have been The Camera I Use Doesn't Matter to You.

    -No one claims a better camera makes a better photographer or improves one's photography. That's just ridiculous and not even worth discussing. That's like claiming a better umbrella causes less rain. No one does that, except a desert dweller who never saw rain, doesn't understand what it is and doesn't understand what an umbrella is. People who tell you 'what a great photograph, your camera must be great' are photographic desert dwellers. They don't matter for this discussion because they don't buy cameras and there is no justification to be angry at them because they don't know better. An X-T2 lets you take better photographs than an Instamatic, but that has nothing to do with beeing a better photographer.

    -He doesn't understand why people are disappointed. He complains that someone wrote: Last week you told me the X100 was great for street and this week you buy a different camera. Well, they don't think they need the same camera he has to instantly become as good a photographer as he is. They just wanted the "best tool for the job" they could afford (which is absolutely reasonable) and trusted his advice. Obviously they feel he let them down.

    -His words and his deeds differ. He is one big gear head who tries to tell himself he isn't because he's constantly short. If he wasn't and gear didn't matter he'd get an £50.-- camera and take great shots with it. He tells people not to buy cameras they can't afford, but he needs to sell an inexpensive camera to fund another inexpensive camera. This tells me he has no reserves, if his rusty old £500 Fiat breaks down tomorrow he has to walk for the next four months and he can't afford this camera. In fact, he's so short, he has to swallow his pride and do his beggar thing for 1/5th of the video.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  9. GregWard

    GregWard Premium Member

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    I agree that was my interpretation as well.
     
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  10. Mischa

    Mischa Vintage lover

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    @AdrianG if you own a dog for 40 years, I'm pretty sure you can earn some money with it.. :D

    But I get you.. a car is the biggest waste of money I can think of, right after a house..
    Paying half a million for a small piece of land to put your house up? (Land is VERY expensive here) paying a hundred grand for solar power?

    I can shoot Hasselblad digital for years with that money :D
     
  11. boulevardier

    boulevardier Premium Member

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    I disagree, the inference is there in every advertisement, web chat, forum thread and sponsored "review". The alternative is people buy cameras knowing their photography won't improve one iota but want to press new buttons and see what the world looks like at 125000 ISO. Practical restrictions as a way of enhancing creative thinking are taught in every art school in the land. Shooting with one lens, at base ISO, jpeg only, on a small memory card with limited shots, outside your comfort zone, will render more creative dividends than a few megapixels in an already pixel saturated camera market. Flipping cameras is one of the least effective ways of changing thinking about the visual world. Unless you're confident enough in your creative vision that only low light performance or a bigger grip can improve things, photographers really are buying a dream.
     
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  12. johndizzo15

    johndizzo15 Premium Member

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    That's the problem. You keep moving back to the assumption that people's purchasing decisions are solely driven by the buying of a dream.

    Am I confident in my ability to produce the images I desire in the way I envision them? Yes.

    Do I think new equipment will make me better at realizing those visions? Not necessarily. But it will certainly make some things more enjoyable or easier.

    If you want to flex your creative muscle via placing constraints and restrictions on yourself, that is your prerogative and no one is knocking you for that. I often do that with fast manual focus primes. Doesn't change the fact that that is merely one facet of one thing I like to do in my photographic life.

    But if you really want to stay true to your philosophy, why not shoot a view camera? Go big or go home, right? Why bother with all the modern amenities at all when the true way to really be an acceptable photographer and gain creative dividends is to use practical restrictions?

    Look, for what I shoot and the way I shoot it, equipment often makes things easier or enables me to do things I wasn't able to before. Case in point. My family goes for casual walks to the neighborhood park several times a week in the evenings. I often carry a small rig to capture my little ones if a moment presents itself. This particular evening several nights ago, I brought along the Sony with a budget/compact/light 28mm prime attached and nothing else. I took about 8-10 photos that evening. This shot was at 1/13th shutter handheld. Could I have brought along a tripod? Sure. Could I have packed a faster lens? Yes. Could I have thrown a speedlite in the stroller? Absolutely. But it wasn't a photo shoot and I wanted to be nimble. The point of that walk to the park was to hang out with my family.[​IMG]
     
  13. pfogle

    pfogle Puzzled

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  14. johndizzo15

    johndizzo15 Premium Member

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  15. AdrianG

    AdrianG Premium Member

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    I am convinced, people know their skills won't improve with a new camera. For a few a more powerful camera is a way of cheating and this works. The other reason why some people get addicted is the same reason they shoot RAW and fixed aperture f/2.8 zoom lenses. They think they need options. They think they need versatility. They think they need to get every conceivable shot. This of course is an illusion. However, most get a new camera for practical reasons or because they want to treat themselves or for a million other reasons which I don't care to know. How does it matter why someone else buys new gear?

    Well, at least half of the time I shoot an old Leica without a meter, without a battery even, and I find it easier and more convenient to shoot than the XP2 as long as there is sufficient light. It neither advances nor hinders my photography. I love to shoot it, which advances me. The XP2 does the same for me, because I love to shoot it, too.
     
  16. beakhammer

    beakhammer Premium Member

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    The only true generalization is that all generalizations are false.

    I have been getting great benefit lately from shooting with a very wide range of cameras, antique box cameras, large format view cameras, viewfinder, rangefinder, SLR and Mirrorless cameras, film, digital, and Rube-Goldberg hybrid systems. I am finding that jumping around among these cameras is helping me become a better photographer in some ways. It is helping me step back from the gear and think harder about the images that I want to make. There is certainly a lot more to photography than being expert with the latest and greatest machinery. On the other hand, I know that there are specific things I could do with a newer camera. My newest is 4 years old. My oldest is 80 years old. They are both worth using.

    I have a plan that will make everyone who has responded to this thread a better photographer. I want each of you to send me your newest, most high tech camera, and in return I will mail you some ancient piece of crap that I can promise will not make you any less skillful a photographer. I am willing to bear the burden of your new X-Pro2s, X-T2s and GFX 50s cameras. I know that they will not make me a better photographer, but I will try to bear up and soldier on anyhow.
     
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  17. Richard_R

    Richard_R Eclectic eccentric

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    I think that this thread has reached its use by date and is no longer achieving anything constructive or new. People have expressed their positions so why don't we all just go outside and take some photos rather than repeating what we have each said numerous times.
    I'm sure that the OP did not envisage that there would to be 6 pages of largely circular argument when he first wrote his thoughts.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
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  18. beakhammer

    beakhammer Premium Member

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    I suspect the OP knew exactly how people would react. Circular arguments can be fun, kind of like a merry-go-round, but after you've been around enough times you want to get off.
     
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  19. Xenon100F

    Xenon100F Member

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    Ok Moderators, please allow me to have the final word and then please close this thread.

    To summarize:
    1. Some people buy the latest gear because they have misguided thoughts about new gear making them a better photographer
    2. Some people buy new gear and are correct that this will help them get photographs that they wouldn’t otherwise be able to get
    3. Some people just like new toys, can afford it and want those who look down on them to piss off
    4. Most people would benefit more from spending time improving their skills rather than buying a new camera
    5. Buying a new camera does not mean you can’t also work on improving your skills. One does not exclude the other despite those who think otherwise.

    I’m sure I’ve left out a few points, in which case feel free to continue this thread for another 6 pages if the Moderators are not in favor of my first sentence.
     
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  20. Arjay

    Arjay Admin Staff Member

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    We don't close threads unless the discussion gets nasty. :):p

    Threads, when beaten to death, take care of themselves.
     

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